Nonprofit Launch Plan Podcast for Startup, Small, and Growing Nonprofits

Tom Atema (00:00)
I can tell you of an experience I had maybe two years ago.

where gentleman and his wife, every year they would send the current organization I was with at that time $500 every year. Every year it was the same thing, December 1st almost, you'd get the same gift for about five years, six years. Then all of a sudden out of nowhere, I got a $385,000 investment from them. Where did that come from?

Matt Stockman (00:25)
Wow.

Yeah.

Tom Atema (00:28)
So I

call Henry and I said, Henry, thanks for this. This is amazing. Let me tell you what we're going to use this for, if it's OK with you, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And he said, I just wanted to bless you. I wasn't planning on selling my business. But somebody came in and offered me something I couldn't refuse at my age of life.

Matt Stockman (00:48)
Hmm.

Tom Atema (00:50)
And I wanted to tie it to you guys because you were the one that faithfully called and thanked me every year and gave me stories throughout the year on how my investment was making a difference in people.

Mat Stockman (01:09)
Welcome to the Nonprofit Launch Plan podcast for startup, small and growing nonprofits. This podcast is here to help you build your nonprofit from the ground up on a strong foundation. So every episode we give you the frameworks and the tools and the personalized guidance that you need to be able to create lasting impact. I'm your host, Matt Stockman. I'm a nonprofit growth coach and I'm the founder of Nonprofit Launch Plan.

At Nonprofit Launch Plan, we believe that every nonprofit has got to be operating at peak performance in six key areas in order to be successful. Those six areas are leadership, fundraising, marketing, programs and services, operations, and finances. So on every episode of the podcast, we talk about a topic that is key to at least one of those six areas. And before we dive into today's interview, which I'm really excited for you to be able to hear,

If you or somebody you know is still in the dreaming phase of launching a nonprofit, I've got a special freebie that I want to make available to you.

It's a PDF resource called From Dream to Action, Your Nonprofit Pre-Launch Checklist. It's 10 essential steps for moving from nonprofit idea to impact. It's 10 things for you to think about as you start to crystallize your dream for a nonprofit. It will take you through 10 easy first steps to move your dream for a nonprofit toward a launch plan that actually gets your nonprofit dream off the ground.

It will walk you through your why, considering your first teammates, in other words, your board, honing in on exactly who your beneficiary is, who are you doing the work for, choosing your nonprofit name, your IRS application. an easy to do action step for each one of the 10 things for you to consider that's gonna bring your dream for a nonprofit into a whole lot clearer focus.

when you've completed it. So if you'd like the free PDF, it's called From Dream to Action, your nonprofit pre-launch checklist, 10 essential steps for moving from nonprofit idea to impact, email me at matt at nonprofitlaunchplan.com, M-A-T-T at nonprofitlaunchplan.com, or look for the pop out on my website, and that's nonprofitlaunchplan.com. Now,

Today on the podcast, we're talking with my good friend, Tom Adama. Tom has over 50 years of experience in nonprofit leadership and in fundraising. He's currently the co-founder and chairman of the board of a faith-based nonprofit called Heart for Lebanon, which provides education, humanitarian relief, and the gospel to the people of Lebanon, and in particular, Syrian refugees in Lebanon.

to this work, Tom has also been the vice president of international ministries and strategic partnerships with John Maxwell's Equip organization. He's been in leadership at the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association and at Word of Life Fellowship.

I've known Tom for a really long time. He's been a mentor to me over the years. And I'm thrilled that you get to hear his wisdom and insight and coaching on this episode of the podcast. He's sharing some of the most practical wisdom I've ever heard on how to build meaningful relationships with your donors. He calls them investors. You'll hear that in the interview and how to truly care for them beyond the transaction.

So in this episode, we're going to dig into what defines a major donor, how to start and nurture those relationships from that very first gift that you get, and why stories are at the heart of any healthy donor strategy. So let's dive right into my conversation with Tom Adama on the Nonprofit Launch Plan podcast for startup, small, and growing nonprofits.

Matt Stockman (05:00)
Help people sort of even just to start with Tom, define what you would consider a major donor to be.

Tom Atema (05:01)
Thanks

Matt, I would consider a major donor as anybody who's major in your eyes. Let me back up just a little bit before we get any further in that and say, I'm going to make a big assumption, and I know that that could get me in trouble, but a big assumption that you started a nonprofit because you see a need in the world that you want to fix, and you've looked at other organizations and they weren't quite doing it the way God or you wanted to do it.

And so you launched into your own nonprofit. Now there's one thing everybody knows, no matter where you are in the nonprofit spectrum. And that is every nonprofit in the world needs money. every nonprofit. So why do we talk about it so much?

I think for those of us in the faith-based world, we have to rely more on the relationship part than on the fundraising part. But to your specific question, when I look at people, I sit down with somebody when I first meet somebody or when I get that first, what I call investment, that financial gift from a person, and I use the word investment on purpose because I think scripture talks to us about

Matt Stockman (06:14)
Mm-hmm.

Tom Atema (06:20)
investing into kingdom activities. So whatever your nonprofit is, at the end of the day, if you're a faith-based nonprofit, you're investing into the kingdom of God. You're expanding the kingdom of God at some level, some way, somehow. So you're investing. And then with investments, just like Wall Street, I'm going to do my best to give you a dividend on your investment, to give you a reward on your thing. So I think our terminology is good.

when we use the word investment. think when I sit down and somebody sends their investment, the first thing I do is I pick up the old-fashioned phone and I call them and I say, thank you for your gift. I thank you for your investment. This means a lot to us. I can say, and even if I get their voicemail, I can say a lot in 60 seconds. And they can feel my heart.

Matt Stockman (07:06)
Yeah.

Tom Atema (07:10)
Most of the time on the first call, they're not going to call you back. They don't recognize the phone number. It goes to voicemail, whatever the case may be. But after about the second or third call, you'll get somebody. And when I get somebody and I don't have to go see them, I can tell on the phone, I have really four questions that I ask.

One question is, what do you sing about? What gives you joy? What gives you a spring in your step? What do you really enjoy doing? Second question is, what do you despise? What don't you like? I mean, what do you run away from? You know, that sort of thing. And then, what is your purpose? And then, number four is, what do you want to be known for?

Matt Stockman (07:49)
Yeah.

Tom Atema (07:58)
Now out of those four, I can learn a lot about a person relationally. And when they start telling their story, how did you come to faith? How did you find us as an organization? What interests you into our organization to send in your investment? You'll get what I call the Holy Spirit nudge and say, this person needs your attention. Now I don't know what that means.

But as a new nonprofit, a major gift you have to define because it might be $100, might be $500, it might be $5,000. I've lived too long and been at this too long to know don't bypass and think, well, that's only a $25, $50 first-time investment. I am not going to call them. I'm just going to let it go through. Some of those first-time...

Matt Stockman (08:38)
Hmm, right.

Tom Atema (08:57)
$25, $50 investments are test gifts to see if you thank, to see if your story matches your mission, and just to feel you out. How relational are you? Are you really interested in them? And then before you know it, and I'm not saying this happens a lot, but it happens more times than I can count,

Matt Stockman (09:01)
Mm-hmm.

Tom Atema (09:20)
you get the $1,000 check and then the $5,000 check. There is no magic bullet that I'm aware of that I found in 52 years of doing this where you can say, that's a major investor and my next check's gonna be $20,000. It doesn't happen that way. God pokes out their heart as you speak into their heart.

Matt Stockman (09:22)
Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

you make those calls and you start to sort of get to know individuals and you ask those questions, do you keep notes or anything like that? how do you keep all that straight in your head?

Tom Atema (09:56)
Well, in the two or three organizations that I started, three organizations I started, when I first started, everything's in my head, right? I mean, people start organizations because they're entrepreneurial and they want fill a need someplace. And so you're just working 24-7 to fill that need and whatever it takes, whatever phone rings, I'm going to answer it. So I still am not the world's best.

Matt Stockman (10:04)
Hmm

Tom Atema (10:23)
data entry note person there ever was. But I've developed a system where I say to my dear wife, Chris, ⁓ I talked to Matt today, I talked to Henry, talked to Jack today, and here's what I told him, can you put that in the database? I use that.

Because as your ministry grows, as the ministries that I help develop and start grow, you can't remember everything. And next time I get an investment or next time I go to St. Louis or next time I go to Denver or whatever the case may be, I'll ask my wife to pull up the list of people from that area with the notes. And that way when I meet with them, I have an idea of what I talked about.

Matt Stockman (11:04)
Okay.

Tom Atema (11:05)
Now that really comes important because I think one of the aspects, you don't mind me taking another minute here, that Christian organizations miss, and that's the prayer ministry. I think prayer ministry is far more important than the financial ministry. It's the prayer ministry that will fire the financial ministry. I mean the Bible says it from beginning to end, many different ways which people pray about, they care about, what they care about they fund.

Now we can't play the game because God sees that and that's not going to work. And it's hard to remember prayer requests. It really is. I do my best. have this, I got a little notepad here with scribbles on it. That's today's notepad from people who called and said, can you pray for this and this and this and this? And I go home tonight, I'll give this to my wife and she'll put it in the database and I'll remember them.

And to be truly transparent about it, I don't remember them as often as I should. But notes in the database, whatever database you use, whatever system you use, will really help you connect. Hey, by the way, John, I was with you on the phone. You told me about your daughter, Sally. She's away from the Lord. I prayed for her a couple times. How's she doing? Now you're building a real connection with that person.

Matt Stockman (12:25)
Yeah, yeah.

So if I hear what you're saying, especially for the nonprofit leader who's at the beginning of their journey is that you approach whether or not that initial gift is a $5 gift or a $500 gift, you approach it the same way. You're starting with everybody, you're starting to grow a relationship with everyone from the first donor forward. Some of those people will turn into,

10 or 20 or 50 or $100,000 givers at some point, perhaps, maybe not, but in others will just continue to be the five or the 10 or the $15 gifts from time to time. But really start with that thank you call and it doesn't matter the gift size at all.

Tom Atema (13:18)
It doesn't matter the gift size at all. And I know when you get bigger, you say, well, I can't do everything. So I'm going to do people who invest $250 or more. I'm going to call them, but not the lower ones. If I have free time, I'm going to call the lower ones. Because again, I don't know the widow's might. All right? I got to be very careful. I don't want to miss it.

Matt Stockman (13:37)
Right, right.

Tom Atema (13:43)
I can tell you of an experience I had maybe two years ago.

where gentleman and his wife, every year they would send the current organization I was with at that time $500 every year. Every year it was the same thing, December 1st almost, you'd get the same gift for about five years, six years. Then all of a sudden out of nowhere, I got a $385,000 investment from them. Where did that come from?

Matt Stockman (14:08)
Wow.

Yeah.

Tom Atema (14:11)
So I

call Henry and I said, Henry, thanks for this. This is amazing. Let me tell you what we're going to use this for, if it's OK with you, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And he said, I just wanted to bless you. I wasn't planning on selling my business. But somebody came in and offered me something I couldn't refuse at my age of life.

Matt Stockman (14:32)
Hmm.

Tom Atema (14:33)
And I wanted to tie it to you guys because you were the one that faithfully called and thanked me every year and gave me stories throughout the year on how my investment was making a difference in people.

Matt Stockman (14:48)
talk a little bit more about that thing about the stories, because that is such a huge thing that in the busyness of all the admin and the phone calls and the programs that you're trying to put together and the operations behind the scenes and all of that, the relaying of impact back to the people who have, their investments have created the impact.

is such a key ingredient to that. Talk a little bit more about how you do that.

Tom Atema (15:19)
Yes. ⁓

So a long time ago I heard, I can't remember the guy's name now, Global Leadership Summit years ago say, stories stick, numbers fade. And boy is that true. ⁓ People don't remember, people say, well how many people are you feeding? It's immaterial how many people I'm feeding. Our mission is to make disciples. I want to tell you about stories, that. So I want to answer your question, but I want to jump to the story.

Stories are important because at the end of the day, at the end of the day, we don't want to make it difficult for people to see and hear about Jesus Christ.

So yes, maybe you have a feeding program, maybe you have an educational program, maybe you have whatever thing it is. But that just is an entree so you can build a reputation, that you can build a bridge, that you can build trust to have a conversation with them and to be drawn into a conversation about Jesus Christ. So the person that gave you money in an investment for let's say food, humanitarian aid, if they're a Christian, they really don't care about the Christian...

how you do that and all the nuances of that and what's in the bag and all that. They want to know how that bag of food ended up leading somebody to a relationship with Jesus Christ and how they're being discipled and did they get baptized or not. It's this impact stories. let me put it this way Matt, I really believe people don't care what I do or what we do as an organization.

but they care about the stories that are created because of what we

Matt Stockman (17:07)
That's really good, that's good. ⁓ And so that consistent rhythm of making sure that those stories are shared with ⁓ your givers, your investors is critical. Obviously it was part of the catalyst to that $385,000 gift, because he came back to you and said, I knew what you guys were up to all the time.

Tom Atema (17:31)
Exactly. Make sure that when you have your mission statement, you're going to have to be laser focused on it and you're going to have to fight for it every day of your life because you can drift from it. So let's say, and I believe this from ourselves and some of the organizations I started, the last one I helped start, co-founded, is to make disciples, right? It is very easy.

Matt Stockman (17:32)
Yeah.

What do mean by that?

Tom Atema (18:00)
to be sucked down the humanitarian aid and be known as a humanitarian aid organization and not as a discipleship making ministry. Because you do have to, if you're going to follow the biblical principle of what Jesus did, he fed people, he healed people, he took care of people's personal needs. It's the old leadership principle. People don't care about what you care about until you care about what they care about.

Matt Stockman (18:08)
⁓ Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Tom Atema (18:27)
And if they're starving to death or they can't get an education for their child or if, ⁓ you know, in the present shutdown with our government at the moment, they're not getting food because the stamp program isn't being funded and we're not stepping up and filling in that gap, they could care less about our Jesus. They got a problem, right? And we have another golden opportunity to be the hands and feet of Jesus. And when you show up with that, unconditionally.

And remember, unconditional goes both ways. I'm going to give you this food because you're in need for it unconditionally. No strings attached. There's no Bible in the bag. There's nothing in the bag. But I unconditionally want to sit down with you and I want to hear your story. I want the privilege to know what you dream about, what you care about, what you cry about, what's your dream for your children. And they start sharing that and you build a relationship and pretty soon they'll say to you, well.

Why are you doing this? Nobody else does this. They just drop the food off and run. But you're here day after day, month after month, week after week, or whatever your schedule is, rhythm is, and you care for me. That's the story you want to tell because that's what somebody invested in. They did not invest in that bag of food. They invested in the person that received that bag of food. Now, they might not word it that way at the beginning. And they're not going to say that on their check or on their

wire transfer or however you're receiving funds. But people give to people. They don't give to bags of food or to a classroom or anything like that. So finish the circles. Show the people what they are really investing in, which will last for all of eternity if you're in the faith-based world.

Matt Stockman (20:22)
Tom, tell me a little bit about when you've worked with a group of investors and some have sort of self-identified to the point where giving larger investment gifts, ⁓ and you have a particular need to program a project, a building, something like that.

You've grown this relationship with them. Now you have a need that's a little bit more significant financially. Talk to me about how you talk to them about that.

Tom Atema (20:55)
Well, before I ever talk to them about it.

I talked to my heavenly father about it and asked him to bring people to mind that might be interested in this. Now I know some people off the top of my head that if we come into a building program, let's say a capital campaign of any kind, that people are interested in capital. This is what God's called them to invest in capital. And so I'll go to them. But before I ever go to them, spend literally not trying to over spiritualize it, but I spend quite a bit of time in prayer about how to approach

Matt Stockman (21:16)
Mm-hmm.

Tom Atema (21:27)
this because I want to do it relationally. And I can't tell you how many times God's opened the door. I can, kiddingly but it's true say I've never raised a dime in my life because when I sit down with Henry

And I share with them stories of his last investment and the impact it made. And you know, Henry, how about your daughter? You know, I've been praying for her, your wife, what are you doing? How's your business doing? How's your church life? you last time you were elected to the Deacon Board? How's that going? How's your church going? Is it expanding? And we get done with 45 minutes of conversation. I have never had a conversation like that, that hasn't ended this way. So Tom.

You talked a 45 minutes about me. What do you need? What does your ministry need? Well, there's the open door I prayed for. All right? And now they drew me into the conversation. That's much different than me sitting down and saying, well, Henry, we got a brand new capital campaign and it's $4.8 million and I need a million from you. Nine chances out of 10, you're going to get a no.

Matt Stockman (22:21)
Right, right.

right.

Tom Atema (22:41)
But

if you draw them into a conversation, you're probably not going to get a yes right away. And I would never say, Henry, could you do a million dollars? I would say, here's our need. We've got $4.8 million. We raised 52 % of it. You can do the math. If God's calling you to do this, we'd be most honored if you participate with us in what God is doing. And more times than not, the check

Matt Stockman (22:46)
Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Tom Atema (23:09)
that came was bigger than I would have asked for.

Matt Stockman (23:12)
Really? Wow.

Tom Atema (23:14)
Because

you're honoring them, Matt. You're honoring the relationship that you've built. You're honoring what God's called them to do. And they want to honor you in return. It's God's math. Don't ask me to explain it all. can't. He's the only math system in the world where 2 plus 2 is 16. I don't know how that works.

Matt Stockman (23:36)
Yeah. Yeah.

For somebody like Henry, or somebody who's made a ⁓ significant investment in what is happening in your nonprofit, that significant investment is significant for them, no matter the dollar amount. Besides ⁓ thank you calls and follow ups with stories and things like that.

What other ways would you recommend somebody consider maybe just expressing gratitude and thanks back to people who are investing?

Tom Atema (24:11)
So, you know, when you have this conversation with them, you know what they like and what their hobbies are, and you get to know that. ⁓ For instance, if I'm on a trip, I know one of our last investors that I worked with loved to collect Starbucks mugs from all over the world. So I'd go to a country that I didn't think he'd know. I'd buy him a Starbucks mug.

or a plaque from a country, or if I went to Lebanon, a cedar piece of wood, like this comes from the forest of Lebanon, or something, and just mail it to them as a thank you. ⁓ Tyndale House Publishers, a couple years back, printed a book of the history, a day-by-day devotional of the history of the Christian church. That meant a lot to me personally, and I ordered like 150 copies of it and sent it to a bunch of people.

Matt Stockman (24:43)
Right.

Tom Atema (25:05)
⁓ So you thank them that way, using gifts, tangible things. The other thing that I have found extremely helpful is, and a lot of people won't take you up on this, so don't panic, those that are listening, but invite them to come see your ministry. ⁓ Vision trip, call it, just come and see, whatever you want to call it, just come. ⁓

Matt Stockman (25:24)
Hmm.

Tom Atema (25:33)
doesn't matter what country you're in, whatever. Here's what that does. It shows your investor that you're transparent. You have nothing to hide. When you don't offer for an investor to come and see what their investment is doing,

think you're sending a bad message, a bad message to them. Now, as best as you can, here's the dates of our come and see trip. And I'd like major investors on this trip, and I'd like everybody else on this trip, because of the way people think and act and some of the things that major investors are.

Matt Stockman (25:58)
Hmm.

Tom Atema (26:19)
Not be grading anybody don't really like to stay in three-star missionary hotels. All right, I'm just saying ⁓ Where other people if you put them in the four-star five-star hotel for that country Would be this is a waste of money that you don't so you don't want to get into those conversations They're not right or wrong conversations. They're just Expectational conversations

Matt Stockman (26:25)
Gotcha. Right, right.

Right.

Right. That's... right.

Great point.

Tom Atema (26:44)
⁓ And so that's why I try to separate them. I don't try to separate them because of dollar amount as much as of thinking, of experience that they need.

Matt Stockman (26:53)
Mm-hmm.

Mat Stockman (26:55)
Do you work at all with business sponsors or foundations, and how do you feel like...

The in those instances, even though it's still probably primarily about relationship, but it's got to be different than working with an individual donor or investor. Talk about those differences a little.

Tom Atema (27:20)
I think the business owner is pretty closely aligned to an individual because the business owner is an individual and it's usually them and their wife or them and their kids or brother or some family relationship. And so that's pretty much the same as working with an individual. Foundations are a whole different breed. ⁓ And I don't mean this negatively at all, but they're fickled. ⁓

Mat Stockman (27:48)
Hmm.

Tom Atema (27:51)
because they're driven by a board that really you cannot have a relationship with. Your program manager you can have a great relationship with, maybe even one or two of the primary entities you can have a relationship with, but at the end of the day your grant goes before a board and based on what's on a sheet of paper, thumbs up or thumbs down. ⁓ And there is no relationship.

Mat Stockman (27:57)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Tom Atema (28:20)
We all learn that the hard way, right? ⁓ And I would also say to people is that don't look at foundations as easy money because it's anything but. It's very hard. ⁓ It is not unusual to send a ⁓ letter of intent, get it approved eventually, send a proposal and literally have...

Mat Stockman (28:22)
Right.

Hmm.

Tom Atema (28:46)
eight to twelve emails back and forth clarifying this sentence, that word, this paragraph, or whatever. You don't get them all at once. It's back and forth. back and forth. Because as they pass it around the board or the office and different people look at it, different people have questions and they answer that before they get to the next one, right? Not wrong, it's just foundation systems. That's just how it works. Now when you do get foundation money,

Mat Stockman (28:58)
Yeah.

Yep, yep.

It's how it works, yeah.

Tom Atema (29:16)
It's substantial. ⁓ But I've never looked at foundations as my bread and butter to run the organization. That's the extra. That's the God-blessing piece. Because you never know when it goes away. And I'm not saying that's wrong, because there's a hurricane in my town. There's a, well, let me use it here, in Swannanoa, Black Mountain, North Carolina, Helene came through.

guess where all the local foundations put their money? And rightly so. All right? A year later, we're still fighting. We're only about 45 % fixed. So, you I understand that I get it, totally get it, and applaud it. But if you're depending on a foundation for that $100,000 check and all of sudden the hurricane comes through and you don't get it,

Mat Stockman (29:48)
Right, right.

than a hurricane's coming through your world, right? Yeah.

Tom Atema (30:12)
Exactly.

Again, but money is money. can't ever emphasize this enough. Money, those resources that are money driven is God's problem. That's God's part of the equation. That's not ours. We cannot sit and wring our hands and say, what am I going to do? What am I going to do? Get up, get on the phone and start adding value to people and you'll be shocked how God meets your needs.

that he has already ordained beforehand for you.

Mat Stockman (30:46)
That is a wrap on part number one with Tom Adama. Today we reframed fundraising as relationships and investments. From that first thank you call to sharing real impact stories to concentrating on the human to human connection with people rather than the math of money.

And next week in part two of this interview, Tom is going to get super practical on scale. How many donor relationships one person can truly carry, why major donors can be a little fragile from time to time, how to hand off relationships without losing trust to another development officer properly, and a simple rhythm for quarterly investor calls that keeps everybody informed and inspired, and a lot more as well.

So I can't wait for you to hear part two that's coming next week on the podcast. Now, before we wrap up this episode, if you're tired of the constant stress and worry about money, where it's coming from, how you're going to cover the cost of all the impact that you'd like to make, it means that fundraising is a struggle. And we get it. You are not alone in the struggle. Can I say that first and foremost? We're here to help. I want you to take a quick moment to head to my website.

and get the free fearless fundraising mini course that I've put together. It's a workbook and five short videos that go along with them that will walk you step by step through a game plan to build your fundraising messaging with clarity. I 100 % believe that most nonprofits struggle and sometimes fall apart not because of lack of funding, but because of lack of clarity. No matter the size of the nonprofit that you're a part of, one team member or a hundred team members.

If a potential donor doesn't understand what you do and how their gift can make a difference, they're not going to get involved. And I talk to all different size and shape organizations all the time. And it's next to impossible in a lot of these organizations to know for sure what it is they do and how they help people. And if that's you, the Fearless Fundraising Workbook is going to help you get that clarity that you need and get you more donor dollars quicker so you can be making more impact.

Get the Fearless Fundraising Workbook and the videos that go along with it for free right now on my website. That's NonprofitLaunchPlan.com. NonprofitLaunchPlan.com. And also don't forget about the other free PDF resource from Dream to Action, your Nonprofit Pre-Launch Checklist, 10 Essential Steps for Moving from Nonprofit Idea to Impact. can email me for that, mattt at NonprofitLaunchPlan.com or check out the pop-out on the website.

That's it for today's episode of the Nonprofit Launch Plan podcast for startup, small, and growing nonprofits. Thank you for listening and watching. Don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss out on the next episode. And if in any way you found this podcast helpful, would you share it with another nonprofit leader who you think might benefit? And until next time, keep making a difference.